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Was Bruce Faulconer's OST really all that bad?
Topic Started: Apr 9 2018, 10:10 PM (2,062 Views)
+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I prefer it so much personally, maybe because I heard it first but that argument could be made for people who prefer the Japanese one also.

Scenes like this are why:

Buu Saga vids



Say what you want about the Buu Saga in general but I've always felt the Faulconer OST and by extension the English dub always did a good job of making the various Buu's that important bit more sinister.


And then this scene...ignore the English one, no idea why they put a version with no music there but saves posting three videos.


Can only find the more extended version of the English one, whatevs:


I think the Japanese track for the transformation there is kinda dope on it's own but...pop-like music doesn't seem very fitting for the moment? Maybe it's just me.


Some of the Japanese tracks overall are decent but most of them seem kinda samey to me and they're mostly all just kinda "there", half the time you can hardly even hear them and while no music at all can sometimes enhance a scene, a good track is an excellent way to build up some tension.

Faulconer for President.
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I'm just going to say it. The many insert songs, OPs and material used for the series and its subsequent games were awesome.

"Spirit vs Spirit"
"Solid State Scouter"
"Battle Point Unlimited"
"Hikari no Will Power"
"Dragon Soul"
"Hero"
"Makafushigi Adveture"
"Hikari no Willpower"
"We Gotta Power"

All of these kick several layers of a***.

However, Kikuchi's original soundtrack for the series to me is one of the most boring, one dimensional things ever. When it comes to the direct soundtrack used in the series, Faulconer and even Yamamoto's plagiarized material all beat it without question.
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superperfectnerd
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Faulconer seems to have more character specific themes instead of just the same themes for certain tones and events happening no matter who is the one fighting/killing.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Apr 10 2018, 02:39 AM.
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Topographic Oceans
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Falcouner's score is one in a series of changes Funimation made to the series in order to make it more palatable to English-speaking (specially North-American) audiences, which I don't think was necessary since the series became successful all over the world without the need for such tweaks and Funimation!DBZ ended up like a Bizarro world version of the real show. The overall plot is still the same, but the series itself feels different and Falcouner's music (which is loud, constant and alters the intended tone of several key scenes) is partially to blame for that.

Taken on its own, the score is serviceable and occasionally even good. I think Kikuchi's is better but not that great either. Musically, Dragon Ball only excels at insert songs and SOME openings/endings.
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Apr 10 2018, 04:59 AM.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

His soundtrack isn't bad, but it's overhyped as heck imo. I do like some of the songs for sure, but most of it is pretty meh.
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Dagon
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yellow magic orchestra
Apr 10 2018, 04:11 AM
Falcouner's score is one in a series of changes Funimation made to the series in order to make it more palatable to English-speaking (specially North-American) audiences,
That is only half of the truth. One part is that one of the heads of Funimation wanted new music and music that was constant, because he felt like it would keep the attention of American kids, and the other reason is that the audio for the Japanese track they got was full of white noise and static. They got hand-me-down copies of the series and the audio was horrible. There was no way that was going to pass on then-modern American television. Chris Sabat talked about this in an interview somewhere, it might have been the interview with Geekdom101, I can't remember, but that's what Chris said.
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Darker
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The Lord of the Dark

I don't think it's bad, I like the music and find it fitting sometimes because it amps and hypes up the moment (they're catchy tunes too) but compared to the original soundtrack it just comes off as a bit odd. I like Imperfect Cell's theme but you can tell that got added instead of what the original melodies used for his scenes were.

Sometimes I think it does a fine job as going along with the scene, but I don't find it quite as memorable or as engaging as the japanese soundtrack. Probably a case of watching a version with the original music and nostalgia goggles clouding my mind, like Steve kinda said.
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

yellow magic orchestra
Apr 10 2018, 04:11 AM
The overall plot is still the same, but the series itself feels different and Falcouner's music (which is loud, constant and alters the intended tone of several key scenes) is partially to blame for that.
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though, an original vision isn't always automatically the best one. I certainly feel more emotion through the Faulconer soundtrack and badass moments are all the more epic.

I just can't see how this:



Fits the tone better than this:




The Faulconer track sounds a lot more tragic and tense to me.

The Japanese one just sounds kinda...mischievous? It's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from the Pilaf gang doing some s*** way back in Dragon Ball, not someone turning full on dark side and killing a bunch of innocents.

Overall some of the Faulconer OST can be a bit obnoxious but I think it's mostly good and does a great job at enhancing character moments most of the time.

Another moment the original OST is just kinda meh...

Vegeta's Sacrifice



Kai's OST definitely deserves a nod but the original I think is really just...eh. Not even having a soundtrack would almost be as interesting, minus inserts.
To the originals credit, and this seems to go for Japanese OST's in general, the sound effects are better. Such as that Oozaru roar when Gohan goes SSj2, cool s***. Or the general echo effects added to some scenes.
Seems to happen a lot with anime, one clear example to me being:

Filthy Naruto invades DBZ topic but plz, understand



Just talking about Faulconer's has made me want to rewatch DBZ again, which I haven't done for probably like 4 years now. So many tracks are attached to brilliant moments.

Lastly while some of the rocky techno stuff could be a bit crap, this OST had some great creepy music, such as:

Pretty much made a super meh arc watchable for me.
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Topographic Oceans
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Steve
Apr 10 2018, 09:36 AM
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though, an original vision isn't always automatically the best one. I certainly feel more emotion through the Faulconer soundtrack and badass moments are all the more epic.

I just can't see how this:



Fits the tone better than this:




The Faulconer track sounds a lot more tragic and tense to me.

The Japanese one just sounds kinda...mischievous? It's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from the Pilaf gang doing some s*** way back in Dragon Ball, not someone turning full on dark side and killing a bunch of innocents.

Overall some of the Faulconer OST can be a bit obnoxious but I think it's mostly good and does a great job at enhancing character moments most of the time.

Another moment the original OST is just kinda meh...

Vegeta's Sacrifice



Kai's OST definitely deserves a nod but the original I think is really just...eh. Not even having a soundtrack would almost be as interesting, minus inserts.
To the originals credit, and this seems to go for Japanese OST's in general, the sound effects are better. Such as that Oozaru roar when Gohan goes SSj2, cool s***. Or the general echo effects added to some scenes.
Seems to happen a lot with anime, one clear example to me being:

Filthy Naruto invades DBZ topic but plz, understand



Just talking about Faulconer's has made me want to rewatch DBZ again, which I haven't done for probably like 4 years now. So many tracks are attached to brilliant moments.

Lastly while some of the rocky techno stuff could be a bit crap, this OST had some great creepy music, such as:

Pretty much made a super meh arc watchable for me.
The Kikuchi track you posted isn't a "Majin Vegeta theme", it's just a track that's played regularly during the Boo arc. Unlike the first one, it isn't character-specific.

Anyway, wheter the original is better or not, it's what it was supposed to sound like--the scenes were directed and paced with Kikuchi's score in mind. By translating/localizing something you're already butchering it to an extent, even something as schlocky as Dragon Ball, since it relies so heavily on wordplay and puns. Changing the music and basically altering the entire tone takes this even further and transforms it into what's basically a different series. A series you might prefer but one that isn't really "Dragon Ball Z".

Also, completely off-topic but I'm pretty sure Vegeta was never meant to defeat Boo. The scene itself is written more like a turning point for Vegeta's character than as epic or badass.
Dagon
 
That is only half of the truth. One part is that one of the heads of Funimation wanted new music and music that was constant, because he felt like it would keep the attention of American kids, and the other reason is that the audio for the Japanese track they got was full of white noise and static. They got hand-me-down copies of the series and the audio was horrible. There was no way that was going to pass on then-modern American television. Chris Sabat talked about this in an interview somewhere, it might have been the interview with Geekdom101, I can't remember, but that's what Chris said.
If the first part of what you said is true, then they would've commissioned new, supposedely attention-grabbing music even if the audio they originally received was clean. And even if the second reason is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, it doesn't change the fact that the music that was commissioned was as different from the original as possible--there's no way the audio was unsalvageable to a point where they couldn't tell how the tone was supposed to be. Also, what a bunch of hacks. Is there a single studio in the world besides Funimation that couldn't get its hands on a copy of Dragon Ball that included usable music?
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superperfectnerd
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yellow magic orchestra
Apr 10 2018, 12:23 PM
Steve
Apr 10 2018, 09:36 AM
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though, an original vision isn't always automatically the best one. I certainly feel more emotion through the Faulconer soundtrack and badass moments are all the more epic.

I just can't see how this:



Fits the tone better than this:




The Faulconer track sounds a lot more tragic and tense to me.

The Japanese one just sounds kinda...mischievous? It's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from the Pilaf gang doing some s*** way back in Dragon Ball, not someone turning full on dark side and killing a bunch of innocents.

Overall some of the Faulconer OST can be a bit obnoxious but I think it's mostly good and does a great job at enhancing character moments most of the time.

Another moment the original OST is just kinda meh...

Vegeta's Sacrifice



Kai's OST definitely deserves a nod but the original I think is really just...eh. Not even having a soundtrack would almost be as interesting, minus inserts.
To the originals credit, and this seems to go for Japanese OST's in general, the sound effects are better. Such as that Oozaru roar when Gohan goes SSj2, cool s***. Or the general echo effects added to some scenes.
Seems to happen a lot with anime, one clear example to me being:

Filthy Naruto invades DBZ topic but plz, understand



Just talking about Faulconer's has made me want to rewatch DBZ again, which I haven't done for probably like 4 years now. So many tracks are attached to brilliant moments.

Lastly while some of the rocky techno stuff could be a bit crap, this OST had some great creepy music, such as:

Pretty much made a super meh arc watchable for me.
The Kikuchi track you posted isn't a "Majin Vegeta theme", it's just a track that's played regularly during the Boo arc. Unlike the first one, it isn't character-specific.

Anyway, wheter the original is better or not, it's what it was supposed to sound like--the scenes were directed and paced with Kikuchi's score in mind. By translating/localizing something you're already butchering it to an extent, even something as schlocky as Dragon Ball, since it relies so heavily on wordplay and puns. Changing the music and basically altering the entire tone takes this even further and transforms it into what's basically a different series. A series you might prefer but one that isn't really "Dragon Ball Z".

Also, completely off-topic but I'm pretty sure Vegeta was never meant to defeat Boo. The scene itself is written more like a turning point for Vegeta's character than as epic or badass.
Dagon
 
That is only half of the truth. One part is that one of the heads of Funimation wanted new music and music that was constant, because he felt like it would keep the attention of American kids, and the other reason is that the audio for the Japanese track they got was full of white noise and static. They got hand-me-down copies of the series and the audio was horrible. There was no way that was going to pass on then-modern American television. Chris Sabat talked about this in an interview somewhere, it might have been the interview with Geekdom101, I can't remember, but that's what Chris said.
If the first part of what you said is true, then they would've commissioned new, supposedely attention-grabbing music even if the audio they originally received was clean. And even if the second reason is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, it doesn't change the fact that the music that was commissioned was as different from the original as possible--there's no way the audio was unsalvageable to a point where they couldn't tell how the tone was supposed to be. Also, what a bunch of hacks. Is there a single studio in the world besides Funimation that couldn't get its hands on a copy of Dragon Ball that included usable music?
That's sort of the point though, the original just has a selection of music to fit certain tones throughout, whereas Faulconer's has specific character themes which make them stand out more. Like Trunks, Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan etc, it's like hearing the Superman theme or something rather than just "oh this tense scene music again, I wonder how many times this'll play in this arc", instead we get a Final Flash with Vegeta's super saiyan theme playing, rather than a theme we've heard play over Goku before, or krillin, or Yamcha.
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Topographic Oceans
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superperfectnerd
Apr 10 2018, 12:44 PM
yellow magic orchestra
Apr 10 2018, 12:23 PM
Steve
Apr 10 2018, 09:36 AM
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing though, an original vision isn't always automatically the best one. I certainly feel more emotion through the Faulconer soundtrack and badass moments are all the more epic.

I just can't see how this:



Fits the tone better than this:




The Faulconer track sounds a lot more tragic and tense to me.

The Japanese one just sounds kinda...mischievous? It's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from the Pilaf gang doing some s*** way back in Dragon Ball, not someone turning full on dark side and killing a bunch of innocents.

Overall some of the Faulconer OST can be a bit obnoxious but I think it's mostly good and does a great job at enhancing character moments most of the time.

Another moment the original OST is just kinda meh...

Vegeta's Sacrifice



Kai's OST definitely deserves a nod but the original I think is really just...eh. Not even having a soundtrack would almost be as interesting, minus inserts.
To the originals credit, and this seems to go for Japanese OST's in general, the sound effects are better. Such as that Oozaru roar when Gohan goes SSj2, cool s***. Or the general echo effects added to some scenes.
Seems to happen a lot with anime, one clear example to me being:

Filthy Naruto invades DBZ topic but plz, understand



Just talking about Faulconer's has made me want to rewatch DBZ again, which I haven't done for probably like 4 years now. So many tracks are attached to brilliant moments.

Lastly while some of the rocky techno stuff could be a bit crap, this OST had some great creepy music, such as:

Pretty much made a super meh arc watchable for me.
The Kikuchi track you posted isn't a "Majin Vegeta theme", it's just a track that's played regularly during the Boo arc. Unlike the first one, it isn't character-specific.

Anyway, wheter the original is better or not, it's what it was supposed to sound like--the scenes were directed and paced with Kikuchi's score in mind. By translating/localizing something you're already butchering it to an extent, even something as schlocky as Dragon Ball, since it relies so heavily on wordplay and puns. Changing the music and basically altering the entire tone takes this even further and transforms it into what's basically a different series. A series you might prefer but one that isn't really "Dragon Ball Z".

Also, completely off-topic but I'm pretty sure Vegeta was never meant to defeat Boo. The scene itself is written more like a turning point for Vegeta's character than as epic or badass.
Dagon
 
That is only half of the truth. One part is that one of the heads of Funimation wanted new music and music that was constant, because he felt like it would keep the attention of American kids, and the other reason is that the audio for the Japanese track they got was full of white noise and static. They got hand-me-down copies of the series and the audio was horrible. There was no way that was going to pass on then-modern American television. Chris Sabat talked about this in an interview somewhere, it might have been the interview with Geekdom101, I can't remember, but that's what Chris said.
If the first part of what you said is true, then they would've commissioned new, supposedely attention-grabbing music even if the audio they originally received was clean. And even if the second reason is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, it doesn't change the fact that the music that was commissioned was as different from the original as possible--there's no way the audio was unsalvageable to a point where they couldn't tell how the tone was supposed to be. Also, what a bunch of hacks. Is there a single studio in the world besides Funimation that couldn't get its hands on a copy of Dragon Ball that included usable music?
That's sort of the point though, the original just has a selection of music to fit certain tones throughout, whereas Faulconer's has specific character themes which make them stand out more. Like Trunks, Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan etc, it's like hearing the Superman theme or something rather than just "oh this tense scene music again, I wonder how many times this'll play in this arc", instead we get a Final Flash with Vegeta's super saiyan theme playing, rather than a theme we've heard play over Goku before, or krillin, or Yamcha.
What does that have to do with anything I said? There's no problem with liking the Funimation score's character-specific themes and thinking they're better than what the Kikuchi score has to offer, specially since that's all subjective. My point was that the Falcouner score is one of the many elements that make Funimation's DBZ essentially a different series, which you might or might not prefer over the original.

If you're responding to the Majin Vegeta thing, I was just pointing out that the second track was labeled incorrectly. The two aren't really comparable since only the first one is Majin Vegeta's theme, the other, as you implied, is just another track in Toei/Kikuchi's assortment of music. For what it's worth, while I much prefer the original DBZ to Funi's version (specially since changing huge elements of a work of fiction to please international audiences is a bad thing), Kikuchi's music isn't great either (as I said in my first post), even if the series is tailored to fit it. It's true that it's repetitive and constantly hits the same beats, which can be unnerving given Dragon Ball's pacing problem.
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Apr 10 2018, 02:33 PM.
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PopcornShower
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It's super overrated. I dig the Super Buu and Ginyu transforms pieces a lot the rest ranges from sounding like a phone going off on vibrate and the musical equivalent of Megatron sodomizing Optimus Prime.
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+ Kaboom
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I don't have any strong opinions on Faulconer's score from a musical angle... it's just kind of there. If you pressed me, I'd probably just say that it's droning and boring.

My issue with the Faulconer score, and it's a big one, is a matter of creative principle. It's not the proper music for DBZ, and it doesn't belong there. What does belong there is what was put there by the show's creators, and that's the music of Shunsuke Kikuchi (along with a smattering of insert songs). Same goes for all the other replacements scores: Levy and Johnson for Z, Menza for GT, and whatever "real music" got used in the movies. None of it should be there.

Now I know Toei has also replaced Z's music themselves in a way, removing Yamamoto's music from Kai and putting Kikuchi's Z music back in. But as the ones making the show in the first place, that's their prerogative, especially considering the circumstances of Yamamoto's plagiarism. But that's not the case for a foreign dubbing company like Funimation. It's not their job to "reinterpret" or "spice up" the show, it's their job to translate it into a new spoken language, while preserving all the other elements that embody its intended tone and feel. Music is a BIG part of that, and replacing it was one of several huge failures of their old Z dub.
Edited by Kaboom, Apr 11 2018, 01:03 AM.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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^^ Doesn't Sumitomo do the tracks for Boo arc Kai?

I might still have some nostalgia for Faulconer's soundtrack from the old Toonami days, but I'm not a big fan of that kind of music in general. The music constantly playing gets old pretty fast too. Kikuchi's OST just feels more natural to Dragon Ball for me, despite seeing the dub originally.
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Paladin
Apr 11 2018, 04:10 AM
^^ Doesn't Sumitomo do the tracks for Boo arc Kai?
Yeah, but only for the Majin Boo arc "Final Chapters" portion though.

For Kai's original Raditz-through-Cell run, the music was originally by Yamamoto, but then after his plagiarism scandal it was replaced with Kikuchi's original Z score.
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